Mageina Tovah – The Magicians

By starrymag | May 13, 2019

By: Lisa Steinberg

 

 

Q) What I love about The Magicians is that redemption never truly seems off the table when it comes to the character arcs. There is no one side to their dimensions, whatever their intentions may be. Can you talk a little about Zelda’s motivation and what really resonated with her redemption arc which was unexpected but also worth the watch?

A) I think Zelda has come from a place of really going by the rules and wanting to do what is right. I think part of that is coming from where she came from, where we heard a little bit about when she was talking to Kady (Jade Tailor). Her mother died when she was very young and she talks about being rescued from an alley by Everett (Brian Markinson). And I think probably she really clung to rules as a way to transition into this new life and a way to become who we see her as and to be part an important part of the library. She wanted to do what is right and for a long time that was what the rules are. She believed in the library to do the right thing and all of that was set up to do the best for humanity. I think we sort of see suddenly she is starting to understand this season that maybe that is not exactly what is happening with the library. So, I think that is really a fight for her – wanting to do what is right, but also pulling herself away from it and relearning that what she believed the library to be is not really what it has become.

Q) Zelda is a woman who enjoys having the rules for control and consistency.

A) It’s all written down. In a way, it’s sort of like her religion. She doesn’t have to think that much about it because it’s all right there for her. It’s been presented as “this is what is right” and “this is what is good” and if you follow that then everything is going to be okay. So, we sort of see her being pulled in a lot of directions. I think it’s really hard for her to divorce herself from the idea. She’s old. She’s been around a long time. She really has and she’s been doing this for a long time and believing in Everett and the library for all this time. I think it speaks a lot to her character that she can look beyond and that she can be convinced that it isn’t necessarily what you thought it was and that things are changing and that you need to reevaluate and you need to go beyond the rules. I think that is not an easy thing for a person to do, especially if you spent a century doing it. [laughs]

Q) Zelda has seemed like a constant puppet on a string, being pulled in many directions but she has done it because her compass has led her down these paths for a greater good. The library’s best interest and her own. Do the ends always justify her means?

A) I think in season three we saw this horrific thing of the library using magic from fairies, which is just horrifying. She was still in that, believing in the greater good. I think we want there to be a black and white with things. There is a right or wrong and the good or the bad. What the writers are very good at is showing that it is not always black and white or right or wrong. There is not always a good decision. Somebody will get hurt or many people will. Up until this season she just sort of put on blinders and follows these rules and ideas. I think she says multiple times “This is for the greater good. We’re trying to protect people here with all of the rule and managing the amount of magic people have access to.” And I really think she believes it and that sort of gives her the drive and the power to do things that are also kind of terrible. But I think now that things are sort of falling apart…I think she got so much closer to other characters this season. I don’t think she has a lot of personal interactions with people and I think we see at the beginning of season four she really does kind of feel a bond to Alice. I think she sees talent and power in Alice (Olivia Taylor Dudley) – in a young woman. She sees that as something she wants to foster. She wants to help Alice. She wants to help Kady. And, of course, she wants to help her daughter. I think the more she interacts with people and has more bonds with people the more she is realizing how much people are affected and she sees the effect. I think this is where it starts to break down of, “Well, I don’t know if the ends always justify the means. Maybe what I thought was right, true and good isn’t good enough.”

Q) The color play in the library scenes adds to the emotional intensity and suspense we see on screen. When it comes to the cinematography, it almost seems like a character as well.

A) The cinematography is incredible. All creative aspects on this show. It’s really been interesting to be on a show where you see that each area is lead by such creative, intelligent people who have such great ideas. Even Margot Ready, our production designer. They all bring such beautiful…And Magali Guidasci! I don’t know that they knew that the library was going to be what it is in season four at the beginning, but sort of everything worked really well to end up there. From the wardrobe to production design to cinematography…Even the fact that in the library the camera is always kept at an angle it makes just a little more like an in-between of “What is this place?” It’s not what we’re used to and it has its own rules, kind of thing.

Q) Alice spent a portion of the season in library jail and freed herself from it. Yet at the end of the finale Zelda declines to be the new head librarian and tasks Camryn Mannheim’s character, Sheila, to go and convince Alice. The librarian responsibilities are rigid and Alice doesn’t always play by the rules. What makes her think Alice would be the right fit?

A) I think maybe you hit it right in the end. Maybe she sees that the rules have led them to this. The rigidity and the inflexibility have led them to now this destruction. So, what do you do when what you have been doing isn’t working? You maybe try the opposite. Right? I think she really believes in Alice’s strength. I don’t think there are a lot of people who have stronger magic than Zelda, necessarily, or in a stronger position necessarily. Alice couldn’t do the mirror magic to bring Harriet (Marlee Matlin) back. Also, she has never been a Niphan. She doesn’t know all the worlds that Alice does. I think that is what is a part of it. She sees someone who is very strong. Also, we see how much Alice wants to do right by everyone and to sort of redeem herself. And I think Zelda really feels that and respects that. I think that it is really about that. She’s a strong woman. She sees things differently than Zelda does. It’s so sad that if she had known what Everett was doing earlier than maybe she would have ended up as the head of the library and it is sort of sad that at the end she’s like, “This isn’t something I can do at this point.” But she sees it in another woman and she sees the ability to do what needs to be done at the moment, regardless of how drastic it is. I think that’s part of what Alice is. She does whatever it is regardless of what the consequences are.

Q) That says a lot about how far she’s come and how full circle for her it has been.

A) I don’t think she was necessarily driven to be the head of anything. I really do think Zelda wanted the best for the world. She was just not going about it the right way necessarily. She was going about it the way she was trained to go about it. I think it takes a while to come out of being so trained to do one thing. I think that’s part of it. She maybe wasn’t sure that she could be as open. And now she doesn’t have a rule book. [laughs] There are new rules that have to be made and maybe seeing what Alice is capable of made her think that Alice is the right person for that.

Q) I’m excited to see where we are headed in Season 5 because in Season 4 we got to see Alice fostering the magic and teaching Sheila and giving her the basics, so to speak. She took to it really well, but will she be willing to come back to the library after breaking out?

A) [laughs] They definitely bonded. But, yes, it’s going to be interesting to see what that bond means and if it means she can convince Alice to come back. Even, what does it mean for the library? Will any of it be retained from before and how much control will they have? Who will control the magic? It’s going to be really interesting.

Q) What’s been a really provoking and poignant part of the series is Zelda and her relationship with her daughter Harriet. We got quite a few beautiful yet also bitter scenes for them. Zelda was a mother determined not to give up on getting her daughter back. What does this say and what kind of commentary does this show about the bond between a mother/child that their willpower goes beyond all boundaries?

A) Actually, probably this was part of the catalyst for how she is able to separate herself from the rules and being ruled by everything. It is incredibly powerful when she finally comes through the mirror. It’s just such a sweet scene when they embrace. She just wants her daughter to be okay and to live a happy life. But it was a horrible fight for that. The scene where she goes into the mirror world and she sees Harriet in all these different forms it was so scary and chilling. I don’t know that she has really stepped out of line before to go for something she needed. Although, in season three we see her with Harriet as a little girl and then as an older girl. Clearly, Harriet has snuck off into other worlds, which is probably not allowed. But she is a headstrong woman. I think there is a line where she reveals to Alice that Harriet is her daughter saying, “She’s headstrong, like her mother.” I think for Zelda, she had to be a strong woman because she came from this really bad childhood in an alley. She survived and she not just survived, but has risen in the ranks to become who she is in the library. So, she’s a strong woman, but she is still penned in by the rules and the rigidity of the library. Harriet isn’t penned in at all. [laughs] She does her own thing and I think she sees that as who she maybe could have been. She wants to give her daughter everything to be who she can be. Maybe if Zelda had a different start to life she could have been as free and as outgoing as Harriet. But I think she respects that in Harriet and loves that in Harriet. I think she sees that in Alice and really respects that in Alice. People will do what they have to do for their kids and it goes beyond what your job is about. I love the fact that there is nothing that could ever turn her away from her daughter, no matter what her daughter does. In the end, the most important thing it seems is Zelda and her daughter, which I think is really lovely and sort of how it should be. It’s really nice to see that side of her amidst of who she has become in the library. That’s the soft spot that we sort of can move out from to see she has that for other people, too.

Q) Kady and Zelda have had a complicated relationship, and ended up having more than just a few commonalities that they never expected despite their differences and deep wounds. Both have made compromises and sacrifices for people that they love, and seemed to have more in common than they realized. In the face of needing each other, what made them work so well together?

A) When Kady had her alter ego, she was a cop and she wanted to do what was right also. I think they both hold that dear that they want to do what is right. Like Zelda thought she was doing what she thought was right and now she is realizing she was mistaken about what she needed to do and what was right. I think they really bond over that. I think that’s what is important to both of them – to do the right thing regardless of their feelings and that made it necessary for them to work together to save people. It’s really sad when Zelda has to admit that she could have saved Penny (Arjun Gupta). I mean, the truth is that at that point I don’t think she could have saved Penny because she was so wrapped up in “these are the rules and this is the way it goes if this happens.” He broke the rules so he has to pay the consequences. She said, “It’s called the Poison Room, right? He broke the law.” Now that they are in it and clearly, she knows she is not going to let herself die from it, she also isn’t going to let Kady die from it because she has gotten to the point where she sees the individual now more than she did before. Before, it was “These are the rules for the greater good,” but now she is not going to let Kady die. She could have, right? She didn’t have to tell Kady, but I think that’s part of redeeming herself and asking for forgiveness. She is saying that, “I didn’t understand before. I was doing what I was supposed to do. Now, I am not going to let you fall to the same fate.” So, it’s really painful to watch her having to admit that and that interaction between them because they’ve gotten so far with each other and then now she has to throw a wrench in it. But I think they have both been through such tragic stuff and I think that is a place to start from. And Zelda is just trying to change. She is learning she needs to change and at the same time I really don’t think there was any evil in Zelda. Of course, people never think they are evil, do they? [laughs] But I don’t think there was any evil in her. She really always was trying to do right. That’s something important to Kady as well. Now that she is learning she didn’t do right she is trying to sort of fix it. You can’t bring people back, but you can do the best you can now.

Q) This incredible moment with that interaction between Kady and Zelda where Kady learns that there was a cure that could have helped Penny.

A) I don’t know that she would have brought that up. She has that scene where they are smoking together and she says, “You’re an incredible person because you can sit here with me.” But then I think that’s probably as far as that would have gone. I don’t think she would have been like, “Yeah, we could have saved him.” [laughs] Except that now she realizes she has to because she has to save Kady. There is no question there that she has to save Kady. So, that’s the most important thing. Whatever the repercussions of that are she is willing to accept that because she’s not going to let Kady die. She knows this is going to mess everything up, right? But there is nothing to be done for it because she’s going to save Kady and Kady has to keep going.

Q) I loved the energy and attitude you and Jade played so well off of one another. Can you talk about playing opposite of her and this incredible give and take we got to see play out all season long? She gives attitude but does it with this airy voice and presence. “Sweetly fierce.”

A) It was really wonderful working with Jade. She is an actor’s actor. She is right there with you. She’s very supportive is scenes. During the Poison Room stuff, there were just feathers for two days straight. It was just feathers falling nonstop and it was freezing. It was not a super comfortable situation. [laughs] We were right there to help each other through it all, which was so nice. We were constantly picking feathers out of each other’s hair, eyelashes and everywhere. [laughs] It was really great. She’s a wonderful person and it was fun. Like you said, Zelda is this very prim, put together sort of airy voiced person and Kady is the opposite. She just sort of puts it all out there and is brash. So, it was a fun thing to see the two of them together. One of my favorite scenes ever was that smoking scene. I just really enjoyed that. We had this wonderful director for that who just gave us the space to do it like it was theater. And Jade does theater, but you don’t get a whole lot of that in television. It goes so fast so it’s a wonderful thing to enjoy and really seeped in the scene. It was really fun and really fun in between takes. It was just really great. [laughs]

Q) In the poison room Kady learns Zelda had a cure that could have helped Penny and it throws their sort of more solid relationship through a loop. Zelda holds many secrets close to the vest, what made her reveal this when she knew it would flip Kady’s switch?

A) We were on a couple chairs in the hallway outside the mirror room. That’s a thing the writers are really good at showing. Just because you have this type of personality and interact with the world in this way it doesn’t mean that there aren’t some really basic human things that you can relate to with each other. So, that scene was that. It would be hard to imagine the two of them sitting down together and just having a quiet conversation. They’re sort of forced to because they are waiting for Alice. You see, they are totally different, but they can relate and we can relate to that as an audience. I think it is very humanizing for both of them. I don’t think Kady expected Zelda to be open and honest with her and share. That’s something that can happen when one person is open and shares deeply then it makes it easier for the other person to share as well. At the beginning of that scene Zelda was like, “We have a lot more in common than you think. Kady is like, “Yeah right.” [laughs] I’ve been through terrible stuff and you’ve been through terrible stuff and you can sit here and talk with me and you still have that ability.” It was a really beautiful scene and like I said, I think that’s an important part. Another thing with the writers on the show is that a lot of shows that if there is a character like Zelda you don’t see much beyond that “this is what her function is on the show.” For them to sort of open up who she is and to make it something relatable that even someone so hard as Kady can relate to makes it so that everyone can relate.

Q) At the end of the finale the hedges, librarians, and everyone came together to use magic in order for a greater good. If magic has to work, you have to believe and participate. It felt like such a tinker bell moment for “The Magicians” universe. Do you think this was a one-time moment or can everyone work together going forward now that the library has no current leader?

A) I don’t know. Only the writers know that. [laughs] But it sort of reminds me of when you go to camp and everyone is like, “We’re going to write to each other and we’re going to talk to each other every day.” All the energy is right there and you’re like, “We’re going to be best friends forever!” Then, you go off in your lives and you’re like, “Maybe I’ll see them next year at camp.” It would be wonderful if that was a possibility. Just to dive into Judaism real quick, (I haven’t thought about this in a long time) but the idea that if everybody were to celebrate the Sabbath than the Messiah would come. I don’t know. It’s something that would be wonderful and that we would all like to have. It wouldn’t make for great TV, necessarily, if everything just worked out. [laughs] But we all sure wish things like that could happen in life and it gives hope that one day we all could solve the world’s problems. Again, it wouldn’t make for the best TV if everything was hunky dory. I don’t know that is going to happen. [laughs]

Q) What I love is this unparalleled plethora of fierce yet flawed female characters. They are complex and compelling but also vulnerable as well. What do you think it is about the dynamic of these core women that they share that really resonates with the audience with the way that they are written and portrayed?

A) Again, I think there is a tendency to write characters, especially not lead characters, to fill parts and to fill a purpose. I think The Magicians goes so far beyond that. We saw in “Side Effects” these other characters that aren’t the main focus of the show and that is such a unique, beautiful thing that the writers on this show will look so deeply into characters and not just use them as plot devices. The women on the show are all incredibly strong. I love being on this show because they really do tackle some scary, serious, heavy subjects and it is wonderful and beautiful to see that these things happen to these characters and that they find the way through and on. I mean, what is more wonderful to watch than that? To see someone that has been taken down and comes back and flourishes. I think we’ve seen that with all of the female characters. I just think that’s a unique thing and a really wonderful thing. I just credit the writers a lot for giving the opportunity to these female characters to really explore them and to see what they are capable of instead of just saying, “Okay, you’re going to be the bad one, you’re going to be the crazy one, you’re going to be the super smart one, etc.” But they really delve deep. It’s a wonderful thing and I think it would be wonderful if it happened more and more on TV. It is inspiring too because most people go through something hard and potentially damaging and potentially that can really take you to the depths. To see that you can keep going and can make your way out…I think the amount they touch on mental health issues is important and wonderful. It is all intertwined. To see characters come back from things that are so damaging…Look at Julia, she’s come through horrific things and become a goddess and then lost that a little bit. Just as much as it is possible to see people and characters come back from that thing and to make a new life is important and it’s definitely inspiring. Like you said, we see that a lot more in men’s character than we do in general. It’s so nice to see that in all of these female characters.

Q) What do you hope fans have taken away from this season and going forward towards Season 5?

A) I think one thing is to not judge people right away, to find the things you can connect on. To know that there is a basic humanity that is shared and it can be sort of a surprising thing that you can relate to somebody that you expected to not be able to because at the end we’re people and we share more than we probably think we do. I think continuing to try to fix things, to fix yourself and to get through bad things is an important mental health lesson. Keep going. There can be better beyond the tragedy.